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TML biweekly    Sun May 15 21:00:04 EDT 1994    Volume 44 : Issue 15

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 604  7570 14-May-1994 J Roberson       Why Tech Levels aren't uniform << >Reme
 604  7571 14-May-1994 Mark Cook        Pre-TNE mail-list << In Archive-Message
 604  7572 15-May-1994 BORIS ZAIDFELD   FGMP-16 Newsletter << Hi there,
 604  7573 15-May-1994 Craig Barnett    Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7551-7561 V74#3 <
 604  7574 15-May-1994 Jeff L. Davis    traveller new era errata? << Just bough
 604  7569 14-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Sword Worlds << David Johnson writes:

This is a passively moderated mailing list. All messages sent to the
submission address will be distributed. The biweekly digest is currently
distributed each Wednesday and Sunday at 9:00pm.

Submissions: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca -or- uunet!engrg.uwo.ca!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (James Perkins)

The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7570
Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 09:51:15 -0600
From: RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson)
Subject: Why Tech Levels aren't uniform

>Remember that my theory ties TLs tightly to the economy. I know it hasn't
>worked that way on Earth today, but it's the only explanation that I can
>see why nearly all worlds aren't TL 15.

When I first scoured Megatraveller, I thought I saw something to the effect
that, as you postulate, economics and infrastructure are what limit TLs.
TL10 traders sell TL10 computers to a TL8 world. Even if they have the
manuals and maintenace books, all the buyers are going to have to rely on
TL10 servicing, which would require TL10 computter training, probably from
imported engineers or natives who study abroad, etc. Essentially, they
can't just read the books - they need to be at least capable of
manufacturing the tech themselves and support it as well.

I would postulate that trade with more advanced planets may let you reach
higher TLs more quickly, but not immediately.

As for Earth, I think the differences between the Core and the Spinward
Marches (Regency) would be more akin to the difference between New York and
San Francisco & surrounding regions, circa 1890. S.F. was a pretty advanced
city for its time, but it in no way rivaled New York. It was still a
frontier, where they were still building the infrastructure that New York
alrady had.

You can't run before you can walk. Even if someone shows you how and holds
your hand, you still have to get there on your own.


_________________________________
Eugenics: Chlorination of the Gene Pool.
Consistency is a Flaw.
J Roberson      RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu        Priss@io.com





------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7571
From: Mark Cook <markc@CSOS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Pre-TNE mail-list
Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT)

In Archive-Message-Number 7563, rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger) writes:

> The Pros:
> - ---------
> You might placate some of the people who ditched due to TNE, and some of 
> them might come back to participate.

Right, except that 'some' and 'some' should read 'a lot' and 'a lot'.

> The Cons:
> - ---------
> More administrative work for James -- keeping two lists, etc.

Since James suggested this to us in the first place, that's probably
not an issue for him, or (if it is), he believes the ROI is worth it.

> Possible reduction of the critical mass that has been achieved on TML.

Unlikely, since those that enjoy TNE will either remain with the original
group, or join both groups and post as is appropriate.

> Creates a little more hassle for those who like partaking in discussions
> and swapping in all eras.

Join both groups.  If the hassle is too much, maybe your enthusiasm isn't
enough.

> You can already discuss anything relating to Traveller on the TML, from any
> era --

True, but many of us feel that mixing TNE with earlier traveller is like
mixing _Ren_&_Stimpy_ with _Masterpiece_Theatre_.  In our eyes, the two are
mutually exclusive.

>        to diminish its subject matter for the aesthetic concerns of a 
> handful seems ludicrous.

Careful when you use the word handful.  I'm not sure how long you've been
with the TML, but I'm going on 6 (or so) years, and the number of voices
I've seen disappear due to TNE is appalling.  I'd hardly call it a 'handful'.
Also, how many of the current subscribers are active contributors?  Maybe
there's a reason.

> The participation level of those who ditched wasn't that high anyways.

BZZZZZT!!  Nice try.  Thanks for playing.

Ask James about the old TML metrics.  At one point (several years ago),
I was one of the 3 highest-volumn posters (# of lines and frequency) on
the entire TML.  Metlay (God bless him), was also in that group, and he
fall dropped the TML altogether, rather than have to endure TNE.  Nick
Sylvain was also a high volumn contributor, and the only thing I've seen
from him recently was his announcement of impending departure, also because
of TNE.

> If TML is not regulated/restricted from CT/MT posts, TML'ers will go
> right on posting such, to the loss of those who subscribe to the subject-
> limited list exclusively.

That's not really the point.  We (the anti-TNE folks) want to not have to
wade through the low signal-to-noise ratio that TNE presents in the TML.
It a separate group, it ceases to be a problem for us, and those of you
that enjoy TNE (and creamed spinich and enemas and so on...) can stay
right here and do exactly what you've been doing all along.

> Seems like a rather lopsided issue to me.

Seems like a pretty selfish one to me.  You'd rather keep us around, even
when we don't want to be here, rather than lose part of your audience?
This may cause many folks that dropped out to come back.  The flip side
is many are leaving anyway, they just don't have anywhere else to go.
The separate mailing list would resolve that.

> I prefer the general Traveller theme.  It's much simpler -- you read the
> messages you want to read.  You keep the messages you want to keep.

 ... and plow through a ton of TNE garbage to get to them.  No thanks.

> Plus, I love bigger crowds -- 500 is a pretty big crowd!

If crowds is your scene, try commuting in Manhatten.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@csos.orst.edu
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"When your enemy falls, don't rejoice -- but don't pick him up either."
                                             - Yiddish proverb

------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7572
Date:   Sun, 15 May 1994 08:54:53 -0400
From: BORIS ZAIDFELD <cs911408@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
Subject: FGMP-16 Newsletter

Hi there,

        Does anyone has any information about FGMP-16 Newsletter?  I saw
an ad for it in Challenge 72, and i was wondering if anyone sub. to it and
any other information.

        Thanks,

                -Shalom Zaidfeld
PS.

I vote No for the New list suggested.  Let's remain united with TML.




------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7573
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7551-7561 V74#3
From: craig@rlyeh.hna.com.au (Craig Barnett)
Date: Sun, 15 May 94 09:28:55 GMT

I have a quick question that has been on my mind for months (ever since
reading Survival Margin).

Exactly _what_ is Project Longbow, and what is the significance of the
date 70 years after the received message in SM?  Has any further information
been made available yet, or do we have to wait (as we do for the Regency
sourcebook, which IMHO should have been the first sourcebook released for
TNE, but that's another story)?


- --
Craig Barnett
craig@rlyeh.hna.com.au        barney@scorch.hna.com.au
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
PGP Public key available by request

------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7574
Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 20:13:49 -0400
From: eo356@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff L. Davis)
Subject: traveller new era errata?
Reply-To: eo356@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff L. Davis)

Just bought Traveller: NE . I have not played Traveller since the first
small black books. Why did GDW go the way of this "new era" ? What was
wrong with MegaTraveller that they tried to "fix" with New Era?
 Are there any New Era errata files out there?


- --
                  Jeff L. Davis
                  eo356@cleveland.freenet.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 604
Archive-Message-Number: 7569
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Sword Worlds
Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 16:24:16 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>Now back to the Sword Worlds.  Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
>>Encountering their TL 12 fleet en route. Now what?
> 
>Well, first, remember in my scenario, Sacnoth hasn't been selling any TL 12
>goods to Gram, and since they probably can't get any from the Darrians
>or the Imperium (the Zhodani, maybe, I admit, but Sacnoth has similar access)
>so the Sacnoth Fleet only encouters a TL 11 Gram Fleet.  

It seems I haven't explained my idea about the economic cycles well enough.
Basically I postulate a series of recessions and booms. Since I postulate
that the Sword Worlds have access to TL 15 physics texts from the Imperium,
I also assume that a lower-than-15 TL is the result of economic conditions:
A TL 12 world can't support the industry needed to build the TL 13 stuff
needed to maintain the TL 14 industry needed to build the TL 14 stuff
needed to maintain TL 15 industry. Got that? So a recession could (depending
on its severity) drop the TL of a world while a boom could raise it. Thus
I assume that Gram had TL 12 a few decades ago, which is when they built a
lot of their current fleet. (Remember, I also assume that a world can 
maintain ships and equipment at least two levels above their own TL). So
they have the ships and they can, if necessary, maintain it on their own. 
Furthermore, my thesis is that if Sacnoth wasn't selling TL 12 stuff at
competetive prices them Gram would build it on its own  -  the reason why
they aren't doing it now being that Sacnoth is selling it cheaper than they
could build it themselves. You see? It all hangs together. The situation
you postulate  -  that Sacnoth has a TL 12 fleet and Gram hasn't  -  is not
possibe under my assumptions.

>(I believe this was
>the case in the 5FW.  Forces from different worlds - Gram and Joyeuse -
>reflected the TL of the specific world.  Anyone have easy access to those
>*Fifth Frontier War* counters who can check for sure?)

I hadn't thought about that. Yes, I think you're right. I'll check. That
would certainly knock my theory over the head. Except that I just might
claim that FFW had made a mistake ;-) Ah, how difficult it is to abandon
a well-loved theory...

>Before I go further, let me say that I've taken to heart Hans's (and Phil's)
>comments that I should focus on the `facts at hand'.  

And if the Gram ships in FFW really are TL 11 (which I think they are) then
that comment is going to return and hit me in the face like a boomerang! ;-)

>I'm really trying to
>come to an understanding of the situation based upon the facts rather than
>my own view of `how it ought to be'.  I just see many inconsistencies in
>what few facts we have at hand.

Well, I'll continue my argument as if FFW didn't exist. For the moment,
anyway. Until I get a chance to think about it a bit. 

>>And the next thing you know Sacnoth is being visited by the combined fleets
>>of the rest of the Sword Worlds who are anxious to ensure that you won't
>>visit their world next.
> 
>Well, maybe, except that if Sacnoth does it's `front work' some of the
>other Sword Worlds will be allied or at least tolerant of it's actions.  If
>it hits the `leader' of the opposition first the remaining worlds will be
>less likely to jump up for their own `chance in the barrel'.

Now you're postulating historical facts to support your view. This is no
more (and no less) valid than me postulating that Gram is the one that has
done its political homework and has the backing of the other Sword Worlds.
Either is equally possible in theory. But one of them has things turn out
the way GDW says they did and the other one dosen't. IMO one should prefer
the one that corresponds most closely to GDWs version.

Now, if you could demonstrate that Sacnoth couldn't possibly loose a
confrontation with all the other Sword Worlds then you'd have something
much more solid.

>>Perhaps this gave
>>them an Us-and-Them mentality that prevails to this day.
> 
>Are those refugees *Piper's* `original Sword Worlders' or GDW's?  :-)

Actually, while I've no doubt that GDW's Sword Worlds owe their origin to
Piper, they actualy have a lot less in common with Piper's than one might
think. 

>I believe the original GDW Sword Worlders were merely fleeing the
>Interstellar Wars rather than their own specific defeat.

I believe, however, that the GDW SW ancestors did, like Piper's SW ancestors,
flee a lost civil war.
 
>I admit, if these `cycles' exist it explains a lot, but I just don't see
>what causes them, nor understand why the same thing hasn't happened in the
>Imperium or the Darrian Confederation.

Remember that my theory ties TLs tightly to the economy. I know it hasn't
worked that way on Earth today, but it's the only explanation that I can
see why nearly all worlds aren't TL 15. So relegate the TLs to the back-
ground for a moment and think about the world economies today. We've got
economic boom/recession cycles. Why shouldn't the Sword Worlds? As to why
it dosen't happen in the Imperium and the Darrian Confederation:

        1) Maybe it does. Why is only 4 Imperial worlds in the Spinward
           Marches TL 15?

        2) Maybe they have a better control of the economy than the 
           Sword Worlds. The Imperium, at least, has enough size to
           dampen local problems.

>Okay, but I don't believe this situation is analogous in terms of the TL
>disparities (I'll get to that in a bit).  In a `Latin' scenario with no US
>I see several different blocs centered about the `stronger' nations like
>Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, and Colombia (which will see much more stability
>when the US drug market disappears).  This is quite similar to Sword
>Worlds history.  If one world rises to dominance (possibly with Zhodani
>aid) I suspect it will stay there.  

So far no problem. This is just what the Sword world history says happened.

>In a feudal technocracy, it ought to be the highest tech world.

So this seems to be the assumption that dosen't fit. Examine it. Change it
to fit. Specifically the part of the assumption that has the individual
Sword Worlds tied together in an 'emperor-level' feudal technocracy. Try
to imagine the tecnocracies stopping at the planetary level.
 
>BTW, if Gram does maintain its position with Zhodani aid *and* the Sword
>Worlders have this `us vs. them' mentality it seems much more likely to
>me that a combined fleet is going to show up at Gram, especially in light
>of the anti-Zhodani sentiment in the Confederation.

How deep is that anti-Zhodani sentiment? You assume they think of Zhodani
as a 50ties redneck thought of russians. Perhaps it's a 20th Century
Yankee/Southerner dislike.

>>How significant is an advantage of 12 over 11 and 10?
>>a TL 12 fleet is twice as efficient, ton for ton, as a TL 11 and
>>six times as efficient as TL 10.
> 
>Another measure would be the TL mods used in *5FW*.  I don't remember the
>details (and my copy is 250 mi. away in Fort Worth) but I seem to
>remember just a few battalions of TL 15 Imperial troops being able to
>hold off several TL 10-11 corps of Sword Worlders.  

Well, Steve's figures was about ships and not troops, but even so, there's
a ot of difference between a 12-11 disparity and a 15-10. In fact, Steve
claims that a TL 15 fleet has a 500-1 advantage over a TL 11 fleet and can
defeat any number of foes of lower TLs.


> Sword Worlds Subsector Data c1120 (from *MTJ* #3)
> Tizon (+6)      0922 B386887-A M   Ri                   323 Sw  K2VI M3D
> Narsil (+6)     0927 B574A55-A M   Hi In                224 Sw  M0II M6D
> Anduril (+7)    1026 B985855-B M   Ri                   222 Sw  F2V
> Gram (+8)       1223 A895957-B M   Hi In Cp             603 Sw  F2D M2D
> Sacnoth (+7)    1325 B775956-C M   Hi In                301 Sw* F9V M8D
> Sting (+5)      1525 B645896-A M                        302 Sw* M0V
> 
>These are all the pop 8+ Sword Worlds.  Gram, at twice the population
>of Sacnoth, ought to be able to fight the higher tech Sacnoth to a standstill.
>Anduril, at one-tenth the population of Sacnoth, could choose the `winner'
>in such a conflict.  

If, that is, wars were decided by mathematical formulae. Let's not get that
simplistic. Lots of instances in history where the apparently certain loser
didn't. I would have been satisfied if Gram wasn't too far behind. That
they are equal given a TL 11 fleet and clearly superior given a TL 12 fleet
just helps. 

Narsil, at a ten-to-one advantage over Sacnoth, suffers
>a twelve-to-one technological disadvantage.  Seems a Sacnoth-Anduril alliance
>should be able to topple those `Zho-puppets' on Gram.  Since Gram is the
>capital that suggests a Gram-Anduril alliance (or Zhodani aid).

Gram certainly needs allies given that the Zhodani help is covert enough to
be just a rumour. Perhaps Gram buys Zhodani ships at a discount. No feudal
technocrat could be very upset at a peer taking advantage of a good deal,
surely?

>>   -  even if the other worlds don't buy TL 12 ships elsewhere.
> 
>Where?  I doubt the Imperium or the Darrians would sell to the Sword Worlds.
>The Zhodani, maybe, but what advantage do *they* have in fostering instability
>in the Confederation?  A stable Sword Worlds on the border of the Imperium
>would have been in the interest of the Zhodani!

Perhaps the anti-Zhodani sentiment was strong on Sacnoth but weak on Gram
300 years ago. Nowadays they _do_ have a politically stable Confederation.
Gram has been in charge for three centuries.

>I'm wasn't thinking sabotage - I was thinking war-time embargo.  Tough to
>wage a military campaign if you're buying your ammo-vehicles-medkits-
>transport ships-*et al* from your adversary.

How long does it take to go on a war-time production scedule? Always
remember that Gram knows perfectly well how to make these things. They
just can't make them as cheaply. That's the central point of my theory:
THE MOMENT SACNOTH STOPS SELLING TL 12 STUFF SOME OTHER SWORD WORLD
STARTS MAKING AND SELLING IT.

>>But perhaps he buys them from the
>>Imperium instead. After all, they are propably playing the US to the Sword
>>Worlds' Latin America.
> 
>I doubt it.  At the risk of beating a dead horse, if allied Mexican-
>Brazilian-Argentine troops had recently occupied San Diego and San Antonio
>you can bet there would be *a lot* of support in the US for much more than
>just `fostering instability' in Latin America.  

What time in history are you talking about? Just after the 3rd FW where
the Imperium occupied 12 of the Sword Worlds? Or after the 5th where they
set up a puppet government of half the Confederation? The Imperium _did_
a lot more just after these incursions. They just didn't keep it up for
centuries  -  which I consider perfectly politically plausible. After
the heat dies down a later government relaxes the more stringent measures.

>>I don't see how that follows at all. The only times the Sword Worlds
>>invade the Imperium is with promise of Zhodani help. You can't make
>>many assumptions based on how people behave when they think they have
>>a powerful ally.
> 
>I'm not sure I understand your point.  Regardless of why the Sword Worlds
>have attacked the Imperium there are clearly reasons why the Imperium
>hasn't `dealt' with the Sword Worlds long ago.  

But they did. The occupied half of them after the 3rd FW. Later they decided
that keeping up the occupation wasn't worth the bother. The 4th FW was
settled by negotiation, not Imperial conquest, so they didn't get a chance
there. After the 5th FW they cut them in half and tried with a puppet
government.

>I doubt the Zhodani would
>have gone to war over an Imperial invasion of the Sword Worlds 

1) Why?
2) What if the Imperium wasn't as sure as you are?

>so there
>must be some reason the Sword Worlds themselves were able to deter such
>action.

Remember, on paper the Zodani _ought_ to have been able to kick the Imperial
ass. Nowadays we know that the reason why they didn't commit enough forces
to do this was that they didn't want to take over Deneb. They've been 
static for 2 millenia (I have a private theory that they have some massive
internal troubles, but that's by the way). In essense, the Zhodani have
been playing a very cynical game with their Vargr and Sword World allies,
using them as cannon fodder. They never intended to win those wars (this,
much more than their thought police/doctors makes the Zhodani bastards
in my books). But neither the Imperium nor the Sword Worlds knew that. The
Imperium were frightened enough of the Zhodani potential to refrain from
taking drastic advantage of any of their victories; the Sword Worlds were
impressed enough to get suckered into yet another Outworld Coalition.

>>On the contrary, if the Imperium has been doing that it explains why the
>>Sword Worlds are PO'd enough to keep on joining an alliance that has struck 
>>out again and again.
> 
>Again, this seems contradictory to me.  Any Imperial meddling in the Sword
>Worlds has caused the *opposite* result  -  Sword Worlds incursions  - 

The Sword World incursions were a result of the Zhodani alliance, and had
nothing to do with their strength relative to the Imperium.

>so
>why hasn't the Imperium sent ". . . the [Imperial] Marines to that little
>[subsector spinward of Glisten] and *stopped* that problem!"?

They have. They just took them home again after a while.

>Okay, this seems the only reasonable solution.  The Zhodani are supporting
>Gram in its leadership of the Confederation.  Through this support, and
>*despite* the generally anti-Zhodani sentiments in the Sword Worlds, 

How general are those sentiments? Or rather, how violent? Is it a general
'kill-the-zhos' hate (your choice?), a somewhat widespread 'all psionics/
zhos needs bashing' resentment (my own choice), or an occasional 'zhos 
stink' dislike? 

>Gram
>is able to maintain its leadership in spite of the greater technological
>accomlishments of Sacnoth.  

Not technological accomplishment (What's the accomplishment in buying an
Imperial physics textbook?). Temporary economic advantage. 

>In addition to it's support of Gram, the
>Consulate has made it clear to the Imperium that it will not tolerate
>direct action against the Confederation.

Quite possible.

>In a sense, the Sword Worlds have been nothing more than a Zhodani client
>state.

In a sense, yes.

>To continue to tromp on my Latin
>American analogy, it's as if the Soviets had supported a Cuban-Mexican-
>Brazilian-Argentine-*et al* confederation that overran Florida, Texas,
>and California every few decades (and Lanth and Glisten are more like
>Yuma, Del Rio, and Key West).  It's shaky, but I can understand it.

Make that overran every two centuries and you're nearer the mark. This is
actually quite important. If the Sword Worlds really bothered the Imperium
every other decade then I agree with you that the Imperium would do
something about them. But they don't. And, disregarding the 4th FW, the
Imperium has taken quite decisive action whenever the Sword Worlds have 
ovestepped the line. 

>Maybe the `anti-Zhodani sentiment' in the Sword Worlds was just Imperial
>propaganda?  (More likely, it was another poorly-considered `rationali-
>zation' by the original developers used to explain why psionics weren't
>rampant in the non-Imperial Sword Worlds.)

Very propably. Or perhaps it's a "Real Men don't need psionics!" thing.

>Given this, one would expect some major changes in this relationship now
>that the Virus has severed Deneb's connection with the Imperium and there
>has been some *rapproachement* with the Zhodani.  The Zhodani no longer
>get as much value from supporting Gram.  Scanoth rises triumphant!?!  :-)

Depends on the economic developements.

>>There's no reason why a king should welcome a feudal pattern just because
>>their own power is based on it. And, in fact, we KNOW they don't. If they
>>did the Sword Worlds would be an empire instead of a confederation.
> 
>Well, I guess I still haven't explained my view of what a feudal technocracy
>is.  The Sword Worlds leaders may be called `kings' but they're more like
>`CEOs'  -  they are at the top of a huge, conglomerate, capitalist, economic
>power structure.  They don't have an `empire' just like the `barons' of
>the Japanese `keiritsu' don't.  They have a cooperative arrangement  -  a
>Confederation.

OK. So you think the Confederation is one huge Feudal Technocracy, right?
I think it is a confederation of (mostly) feudal technocracies. On what
do you base your assumption that it must be the one and can't be the other?
(Note that my argument is that if both are possible then we should choose
the assumption that fits the facts best. Only if one is inevetable or the
other impossible should we choose in despite of the known facts). I won't
dispute that if you have a lot of feudal technocracies on the planetary 
then a further feudal level is a distinct possibility. All I'm saying is
that it's not inevetable, that a planetary king could just as well think
of himself as a real king and treat the other kings as such.  



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
